Gemera test

מאי טעמא

Question that asks explanation of halacha

Before: A statement of Halacha

After : explanation

והתורה אמרה

introduces a pasuk as a source

Before: halacha that needs source

After: the source

What are the reasons for punishment that focus on the sinner and the sinner being wrong?

He deserves the punishment, revenge, anger

What are the reasons for punishment that focus on the sinner and helping the sinner?

1. so he doesn’t do it again

2. to teach a lesson

3. so he doesn’t get a worse punishment in olam haba

What are some reasons for punishment that focus on the needs of other people, not the sinner?

It’ll scare people into doing the same thing, and justice will be served

Describe the ben sorer or moreh(hebrew), and what he has done wrong

He stole money, bought meat and wine, and ate it on the property

Why can’t his punishment be for the purpose of him reacting to his sin and him being wrong?

He hasn’t done something so bad it needs the death penalty

How does the mishna 71b describe the reason for his punishment?

He will do something worse if we don’t stop him now

How is this idea flushed out in the gemera 72a?

This guy will run out of money, he will steal from others, and end up killing someone being an armed robber

What seems to be ethically wrong with this idea?

Not giving him a chance to do the right thing. Right now, he doesn’t deserve the death penalty, how is it fair to punish him for something he never did

According to mishna 73a, what is the reason for killing someone who is about to kill someone else?

That your saving someone else’s life

why does that seem like it cannot be the whole reason why it is ok to kill that person?

Because we know we can’t kill an innocent person to save someone else, so there has to be more of a reason to kill someone

What are the two reasons that work together to explain why it’s ok to kill that person?

הצלה ועונש

even the person your killing isn’t fully guilty, there partially guilty leading you to chose the completely innocent

What is a בא במחתרת?

Someone who is tunneling in at night to a home to steal

According to the mishna, why is he allowed to be killed?

Because he is judged based on what he will do in the end

What are the reasons for punishment that focus on the sinner and the sinner being wrong?

He did something wrong enough that he deserves it

The gemera fleshes that out with a three part explanation. According to Rashi what does each part tell us?

1. burglar assumes the owner will not see him and be silent

2. The burglar knows he is going to kill if he goes in

3. One is allowed to kill if it saves their life

According to Ran, what does each part tell us?

1. Burglar assumes that the homeowner will kill him

2. Therefore the burglar knows he can be killed by the owner

3. The torah gives special permission to kill the burglar because he started it

What is the relationship between a רודף and a בא במחתרת according to Rashi vs. Ran?

Rashi - they are the same because the בא במחתרת is going to kill

Ran - treat בא במחתרת like a רודף but he’s not really

According to ran, what additional justification is there for killing someone that we learn from בר במחתרת?

In addition to punishment and self defense protecting one’s property from someone who is starting up a fight is also a justification for killing.

Ran on Ba bimachteret

Main point 1. Thieves don’t want to kill the homeowner, they just want to grab and go

Main point 2. Homeowners are willing to kill to defend their homes

Main point 3. Homeowners are able to defend their stuff when a thief comes in knowing the homeowner is likely to attack

Explain the concept of קים ליה בדברה מיניה

If a person does one thing and at the same him another thing that would get him a punishment, he only gets the greater

In what case does the Ba Bimachteret does not have to pay?

when he’s at night/in tunnel so he is able to die and he breaks something

in what case does everyone agree that the ba bimchteret does have to pay?

When he’s not at night/tunnel, so your not allowed to kill him

In what case do Rav and Rava disagree if the ba bimachteret does have to pay?

when it’s אין לא דמים + he takes something

In general what kind of payment is canceled because of קים ליה בדברה מיניה

either a punishment fine, or compensation for money owed

In general, what kind of payment is not canceled because it’s קים ליה בדרבה מיניה?

giving something back

According to Rav, when the Ba bimachteret takes the item what happens to the item?

It becomes property of the thief

According to Rav, when the regular thief takes an item, why is he required to give it back?

even though it belongs to him, the torah says he has to give it back anyway

According to Rav, when the Ba Bimachteret takes the item, why is he responsible for all damages including אונס?

because it belongs to the ba bimachteret, and he has full responsibility for it

How do those answers explain why Rav believes the ba bimachteret doesn’t have to return the stolen object?

Since Bob owns the object his obligation of having to give it back, and he also has the higher punishment of אין לא דמים, the requirement of having to give it back is canceled.

According to Rava, when the ba bimachteret takes the item, what happens to the item?

It remains the property of the owner

According to Rava, when the regular thief takes an item, why is he responsible for all the damages including אונס?

even though it’s not his, the torah makes him responsible for all damages like a borrower.

According to Rava, when the Ba bimachteret takes the item, why is he required to give it back?

because it’s not his it’s the owners, of course he has to give it back

How do these answers explain why Rava believes the ba bimachteret has to return the taken object?

Since the thief is not the owner of the object, his obligation to give it back is just returning someone’s thing, and even though he also has the higher obligation of אין לא דמים, the requirement to give it back is not cancelled.