Book V Summary

Book V

Continues discussion of virtue/vice in souls and cities from Book IV.
Interrupted by request to explain guardians possessing wives/children in common (from 423e-424a).
Socrates proposes:
- City raises children, not biological parents.
- Equal education/training for men/women with same natural abilities.
- Female guardians/rulers in kallipolis. Unclear if applies to all or just guardians.
Glaucon asks if such a city is possible (471c-e).
Smallest change to transform a city: kings/rulers become philosophers, or philosophers become kings/rulers (473c-e).
Outrage will subside when true philosophers are understood (474b-c).
Only philosophers have access to forms; without it, knowledge is impossible (474c-480a).

Interruption and Explanation Request

Polemarchus and others interrupt Socrates to elaborate on the common possession of wives and children.
Adeimantus insists on details regarding the production and upbringing of children in common.
The group deems this crucial for determining the correctness of a constitution.
Socrates acknowledges the difficulty and incredulity of the topic, fearing it may seem like wishful thinking.

Common Possession of Wives and Children

Guardians should acquire and use women and children in a manner consistent with their role as guardians of the herd.
Guardian watchdogs' wives should share duties: guard, hunt, etc., with weaker females and stronger males.
Same upbringing and teaching for women if they're used for the same things as men.
Women get music, poetry, physical/warfare training like men.
Naked exercise is seen as most ridiculous
Must determine if female human nature can share all, some, or none of male tasks, especially war.
Original agreement: each does own work per nature.
Accusation: contradiction in assigning same tasks to different natures (men and women).

Sameness and Difference of Natures

Avoid quarrelsome pursuit of principle that different natures must follow different lives.
Need to examine the form of natural difference and sameness being considered.
Difference in souls of male and female doctors is the same, but different between doctor and carpenter
If male/female differ in a craft/life, assign accordingly. If only differ in bearing/begetting children, no proof of difference, guardians/wives share life
Challenge to prove women are different from men regarding city management.

Capabilities and Roles

Natural suitability defined by ease of learning, retention, and physical aptitude.
Men generally superior, but some women better than some men in many areas.
No way of life in city management belongs exclusively to either sex.
Natures distributed similarly in both, with women weaker in all ways.
Assign roles based on nature: doctor, musician, warrior, philosopher, guardian.
Men and women are by nature the same with respect to guarding the city, with some being weaker and others stronger

Education & Optimal City

Women with guardian natures chosen to live/guard with men.
Same way of life assigned to same natures.
Not against nature to educate wives of guardians in music, poetry, physical training.
Current ways seem against nature. Is law possible and optimal?
One education for both men and women guardians-- same natures.
Guardians best citizens due to education, female guardians best of women.
Music, poetry, physical training bring out the best citizens.
Woman strips for physical training, replacing clothes with excellence
Argument states male and female guardians must share life, it's now beneficial and possible to escape. criticism wave

Commonality of Wives and Children

All women belong in common to all men; no private relationships.
Children possessed in common; no parental recognition. Questionable possibility and benefit.
If possible, commonality would be the greatest good.
Delay consideration of feasibility and focus on rulers arranging matters.
Rulers, similar to men, will select women with similar natures to give to men. They'll all dwell and mix together and want to have sex.
Promiscuity is not right in a city
Sacred marriage will be the most beneficial, which will have couples together.

Selective Breeding and Child Rearing

Breed from the best in their prime to improve stock (dogs/birds).
Excellent rulers need to use drugs for humans.
Rulers will use falsehood and deception for benefit of the ruled; it's a useful drug.
Best men with best women frequently; worst with worst; rear best offspring, not the latter. All without notice, so no dissension among herd
Festivals and sacrifices to bring couples together; poets compose wedding hymns.
Marriage numbers decided by rulers to keep population stable.
Lotteries to blame luck, not rulers, for undesirable matches.
Young men good in war get more sex for children.

Childcare & Illegitimate Births

Officials (men or women) take over children after birth.
Good parents' kids go to a rearing pen with nurses in separate city part.
Inferior or defective kids hidden in a secret place (infanticide).
Nurses ensure good mother feeding/care. Mothers don't know own kids and feed for set time.
Proper to ease childcare for guardian wives. Parents should be in their prime with women and men
Women 20-40, and Men after runner peak at 55 engage in community reproduction.
Illegitimate child if done without sanctions; city illegitimate, unauthorized and unhallowed.
Mothers and fathers must go back to sacrifices where the priest blesses children.
Illegitimate babies receive no nurture
Post-reproductive age: free sex, except ancestor relations. Avoid pregnancies.

Kinship and Social Bonds

Men call children born 7-10 months after wedding "sons/daughters". Kids reciprocate, grandchildren too.
Born at the same time are brothers and sisters; groups avoid having sex
Lottery/Pythia may allow brother/sister sex.
Establish commonality in wives, children; consistent with constitution
Find greatest good (unity) and evil (division) in city design and check compatibility
Sharing pleasures and pains binds all citizens together.
Best city: most say "mine" and "not mine" about same.

City-Person Analogy

Best city like a single person: hurt finger = entire organism aware.
Good/bad for one = whole city shares feeling.
Evaluate whether proposed city possesses greatest degree of unity.
Rulers called 'despots' (other cities) or 'preservers/auxiliaries' (ours).
People called 'slaves' (other cities) or 'providers' (ours).
Rulers call each other 'co-rulers' (other cities) or 'co-guardians' (ours).
Other rulers consider kinsmen "own", outsiders not, Guardians considers all co-guardians as kindred.

Benefits of Commonality

Laws promote kinship names and behavior, making actions pious/just.
Citizens say "mine" for common good/ill, unified pleasures/pains.
Common pains/pleasures greatest good.
Greatest good is common auxiliaries' wives/children.
They have it consistent with the lack of private houses, properties and possessions. This salary helps reduce tension.
Private houses/items lead to divided pleasures/pains.
Commonality promotes shared goals, feelings.

Reduction of Conflict

Lawsuits and accusations disappear (everything in common but bodies).
No dissension over money, kids, families.
No lawsuits for insult/injury; authorized/appropriate self-defense.
Older rule/punish younger, younger respect older (shame/fear).
Laws induce peace.
No discord among guardians, so no city civil war.

Quality of Life

Guardians escape petty evils: flattery, child-rearing sufferings, debt.
Life is blessedly happier than Olympian victors because their upkeep is more complete and they give burial
Previous shocked comment on no happiness shows making guardians = being a true guardian. Prioritizes city happiness
Life better than Olympian victors, not cobblers or farmers, silly happiness leads to loss.
Half is worth more than whole, keeping to own lifestyle