Book V Summary

Book V

• Continues discussion of virtue/vice in souls and cities from Book IV.
• Interrupted by request to explain guardians possessing wives/children in common (from 423e-424a).
• Socrates proposes:
  • City raises children, not biological parents.
  • Equal education/training for men/women with same natural abilities.
  • Female guardians/rulers in kallipolis. Unclear if applies to all or just guardians.
• Glaucon asks if such a city is possible (471c-e).
• Smallest change to transform a city: kings/rulers become philosophers, or philosophers become kings/rulers (473c-e).
• Outrage will subside when true philosophers are understood (474b-c).
• Only philosophers have access to forms; without it, knowledge is impossible (474c-480a).

Interruption and Explanation Request

• Polemarchus and others interrupt Socrates to elaborate on the common possession of wives and children.
• Adeimantus insists on details regarding the production and upbringing of children in common.
• The group deems this crucial for determining the correctness of a constitution.
• Socrates acknowledges the difficulty and incredulity of the topic, fearing it may seem like wishful thinking.

Common Possession of Wives and Children

• Guardians should acquire and use women and children in a manner consistent with their role as guardians of the herd.
• Guardian watchdogs' wives should share duties: guard, hunt, etc., with weaker females and stronger males.
• Same upbringing and teaching for women if they're used for the same things as men.
• Women get music, poetry, physical/warfare training like men.
• Naked exercise is seen as most ridiculous
• Must determine if female human nature can share all, some, or none of male tasks, especially war.
• Original agreement: each does own work per nature.
• Accusation: contradiction in assigning same tasks to different natures (men and women).

Sameness and Difference of Natures

• Avoid quarrelsome pursuit of principle that different natures must follow different lives.
• Need to examine the form of natural difference and sameness being considered.
• Difference in souls of male and female doctors is the same, but different between doctor and carpenter
• If male/female differ in a craft/life, assign accordingly. If only differ in bearing/begetting children, no proof of difference, guardians/wives share life
• Challenge to prove women are different from men regarding city management.

Capabilities and Roles

• Natural suitability defined by ease of learning, retention, and physical aptitude.
• Men generally superior, but some women better than some men in many areas.
• No way of life in city management belongs exclusively to either sex.
• Natures distributed similarly in both, with women weaker in all ways.
• Assign roles based on nature: doctor, musician, warrior, philosopher, guardian.
• Men and women are by nature the same with respect to guarding the city, with some being weaker and others stronger

Education & Optimal City

• Women with guardian natures chosen to live/guard with men.
• Same way of life assigned to same natures.
• Not against nature to educate wives of guardians in music, poetry, physical training.
• Current ways seem against nature. Is law possible and optimal?
• One education for both men and women guardians-- same natures.
• Guardians best citizens due to education, female guardians best of women.
• Music, poetry, physical training bring out the best citizens.
• Woman strips for physical training, replacing clothes with excellence
• Argument states male and female guardians must share life, it's now beneficial and possible to escape. criticism wave

Commonality of Wives and Children

• All women belong in common to all men; no private relationships.
• Children possessed in common; no parental recognition. Questionable possibility and benefit.
• If possible, commonality would be the greatest good.
• Delay consideration of feasibility and focus on rulers arranging matters.
• Rulers, similar to men, will select women with similar natures to give to men. They'll all dwell and mix together and want to have sex.
• Promiscuity is not right in a city
• Sacred marriage will be the most beneficial, which will have couples together.

Selective Breeding and Child Rearing

• Breed from the best in their prime to improve stock (dogs/birds).
• Excellent rulers need to use drugs for humans.
• Rulers will use falsehood and deception for benefit of the ruled; it's a useful drug.
• Best men with best women frequently; worst with worst; rear best offspring, not the latter. All without notice, so no dissension among herd
• Festivals and sacrifices to bring couples together; poets compose wedding hymns.
• Marriage numbers decided by rulers to keep population stable.
• Lotteries to blame luck, not rulers, for undesirable matches.
• Young men good in war get more sex for children.

Childcare & Illegitimate Births

• Officials (men or women) take over children after birth.
• Good parents' kids go to a rearing pen with nurses in separate city part.
• Inferior or defective kids hidden in a secret place (infanticide).
• Nurses ensure good mother feeding/care. Mothers don't know own kids and feed for set time.
• Proper to ease childcare for guardian wives. Parents should be in their prime with women and men
• Women 20-40, and Men after runner peak at 55 engage in community reproduction.
• Illegitimate child if done without sanctions; city illegitimate, unauthorized and unhallowed.
• Mothers and fathers must go back to sacrifices where the priest blesses children.
• Illegitimate babies receive no nurture
• Post-reproductive age: free sex, except ancestor relations. Avoid pregnancies.

Kinship and Social Bonds

• Men call children born 7-10 months after wedding "sons/daughters". Kids reciprocate, grandchildren too.
• Born at the same time are brothers and sisters; groups avoid having sex
• Lottery/Pythia may allow brother/sister sex.
• Establish commonality in wives, children; consistent with constitution
• Find greatest good (unity) and evil (division) in city design and check compatibility
• Sharing pleasures and pains binds all citizens together.
• Best city: most say "mine" and "not mine" about same.

City-Person Analogy

• Best city like a single person: hurt finger = entire organism aware.
• Good/bad for one = whole city shares feeling.
• Evaluate whether proposed city possesses greatest degree of unity.
• Rulers called 'despots' (other cities) or 'preservers/auxiliaries' (ours).
• People called 'slaves' (other cities) or 'providers' (ours).
• Rulers call each other 'co-rulers' (other cities) or 'co-guardians' (ours).
• Other rulers consider kinsmen "own", outsiders not, Guardians considers all co-guardians as kindred.

Benefits of Commonality

• Laws promote kinship names and behavior, making actions pious/just.
• Citizens say "mine" for common good/ill, unified pleasures/pains.
• Common pains/pleasures greatest good.
• Greatest good is common auxiliaries' wives/children.
• They have it consistent with the lack of private houses, properties and possessions. This salary helps reduce tension.
• Private houses/items lead to divided pleasures/pains.
• Commonality promotes shared goals, feelings.

Reduction of Conflict

• Lawsuits and accusations disappear (everything in common but bodies).
• No dissension over money, kids, families.
• No lawsuits for insult/injury; authorized/appropriate self-defense.
• Older rule/punish younger, younger respect older (shame/fear).
• Laws induce peace.
• No discord among guardians, so no city civil war.

Quality of Life

• Guardians escape petty evils: flattery, child-rearing sufferings, debt.
• Life is blessedly happier than Olympian victors because their upkeep is more complete and they give burial
• Previous shocked comment on no happiness shows making guardians = being a true guardian. Prioritizes city happiness
• Life better than Olympian victors, not cobblers or farmers, silly happiness leads to loss.
• Half is worth more than whole, keeping to own lifestyle