Reading

Book 3, 392e-398c

‘ “Do not they proceed either by pure narration or by a narrative that is effected through imitation, or by both?”’
Contemporary: description vs dialogue

‘ [394d] “What I meant then was just this, that we must reach a decision whether we are ot suffer our poets to narrate as imitators or in part as imitators and in part not, and what sort of things in each case, or not allow them to imitate at all.”’
- what kind of narration should the poetry learnt be
  - all dialogue? play/theatre/etc
  - mix? novels, short stories, etc
  - all descriptive?
‘ “This then, Adeimantus, is the point we must keep in view, do we wish our guardians to be good mimics or not?…”’
- he wishes for the young children of the city to be educated in imitation, even if they will specialise in leadership, etc
  - ‘“Or is this also a consequence of what we said before, that each one could practise well only one pursuit and not many, but if he attempted the latter, dabbling in many things, he would fail of distinction in all?”’
  - ‘“And does not the same rule hold for imitation, that the same man is not able to imitate many things well as he can one?”’

‘ “But when he delivers a speech [393c] as if he were someone else, shall we not say that he then assimilates thereby his own diction is far as possible to that of the person whom he announces as about to speak?”…And is not likening one’s self to another[‘s] speech or bodily bearing an imitation of him to whom one likeons one’s self?”…”In such case then it appears [Homer] and the other poets effect their narration through imitation”’
‘“…Or have you not observed that imitations, if continued from youth far into life, settle down into habits and (second) nature in the body, the speech, and the thought?”’

God » ‘“true and natural begetter”’
craftsman » ‘“And what of the carpenter? Shall we not call him the creator of a couch?” “Yes.”’
artist » ‘ “ [the painter] is the imitator of the thing which those others produce”’

‘ “This, then, will apply to the maker of tragedies also, if he is an imitator and is in his nature three removes from the king and the truth, as are all other imitators” ‘
‘“For the good poet, is he is to poetise things rightly, must, they argue, create with knowledge or else be unable to create. So we must consider whether these critics have not fallen in with such imitators and been deceived by them, so that looking upon their works [599a] they cannot perceive that these

‘ “Now do not the excellence, the beauty, the rightness of every implement, living thing, and action refer solely to the use for which each is made or by nature adapted?” “That is so.” “It quite necessarily follows, then, that the user of anything is the one who knows most of it by experience, and that he reports to the maker the good or bad effects in use of the thing he uses. [601e] As, for example, the flute-player reports to the flute-maker which flutes respond and serve rightly in flute-playing, and will order the kind that must be made, and the other will obey and serve him…. “Then in respect of the same implement the maker will have right belief about its excellence and defects from association with the man who knows and being compelled to listen to him, [60a] but the user will have true knowledge…. “And will the imitator from experience or use have knowledge whether the things he portrays are or are not beautiful and right, or will he, from compulsory association with the man who knows and taking orders from him for the right making of them, have right opinion?”…. “Then the imitator will neither know nor opine rightly concerning the beauty or the badness of his imitations…. “Yet still he will none the less imitate, though in every case he does not know in what way the thing is bad or good…

‘“…poetry, and in general the mimetic art, produces a product that is far removed from truth in the accomplishment of its task, and associates with the part in us [603b] that is remote from intelligence…”’
‘ “…a quarrel between philosophy and poetry.”’
‘“But we have not yet brought our chief accusation against it. Its power to corrupt, with rare exceptions, even the better sort is surely the chief cause for alarm.”’
- strengthening irrationality » we become pitiful for fiction