Comm 177 Midterm

What does it actually mean to go to law school

do you find it interesting or do you think it will make you a lot of money

Law is a \______

profession

profession

subset of occupation

who decides you get in to law school

other lawyers

why will lawyers limit how many are admitted

less lawyers means they get paid more and the lawyers are usually higher quality

who decides for doctors and pilots

other doctors and pilots decide who gets in same with why they would want to limit

when did law school become the standard way

1800s

other ways to become lawyer

mentorship/ apprenticeship this is the norm in other countries the US just likes higher education in CA you can become lawyer through mentorship

how many accredited law schools in US

200 measured in 2016

how many accredited law schools in the future

will shrink a lot are having finical trouble

materials that are needed

a good gpa
key component- LSAT

the LSTAT is like

the SAT for law school

Standardized test

compare people against each other

why is it called standardized test

follows bell curve

what assumption does the bell curve have

most people are average however this could be wrong because it is an assumption

law schools take who from the LSAT

the most intelligent

why are they taking the most intelligent

to avoid errors like risking someone's freedom they want the people that are going to make the most intelligent decisions, want someone who is above average because they will be better at the job, does not get rid of all mistakes but reduces mistakes greatly

why is a standardized test a good thing

up until the 1970s professions had a problem of not enough minority representation, they were under represented because of discrimination, it removes social characteristic, it measures merit without discrimination

who are the people in law school deciding who gets in and who will they choose

wealthy white men and will choose wealthy white men

issue with the lack of representation

the amount of minorities in law school does not represent the minority population

what type of discrimination is this

overt discrimination, which means that it is openly talked about

how did standardized testing impact admission to law school

admitted people who should be admitted more minorities were being admitted but the numbers were still not equal to that of the population, wealthy white men were still disproportionately admitted

standardized testing moved us forward in terms of

representation but not all the way

Abra story on GRE

took test, succeed on general test, but on specific part about sociology he failed, the questions contained ones about race relations, he has not learned about race relations because that is not something learned in Canada, shows cultural bias in questions, people who wrote test assumed everyone knew these things

the questions on the test are based upon...

the experiences of the writers of the test which is not what everyone experiences, cultural bias

LSAC

distribute LSAT, determine who get into law school, have data about every single person who applies (population vs sample data)

with the population data what is the LSAC able to do

make precise judgments, found that there is a whole SD of scores between whites and blacks because of the data, the pattern is consistent across every year

what have they tried to combat

adding no child left behind, pell grants, and removing and adding schools has not changed the scores

who did the LSAC consult and what did they do

consulted people who specialize in cultural biases, had test rewritten, did not change test scores

Kidder

studied law schools, found that whites are always on top, below are Asians, this is consistent

why are Puerto Ricans constantly at the bottom

their first language is Spanish

What did Kidder do to figure out why differences in score

matching experiment

Matching experiment Kdder

took two equally similar students only thing different was race so same gpa, major, school, etc. and found that there was still a difference in score

Steele and Aronson (1995)

A: investigate the effect of stereotypes on behavior
P: gave African-Americans and whites a test, had different conditions for what they told them the test was about
R: African-Americans scored worse when told it was a test of verbal ability, but scored better when told it was a test of problem-solving

Steele and Aronson variables

told some test measures intellectual ability, on some had them record race before test, after test had them answer questions about how they felt about the test

Steele and Aronson results

found that when the black students were told it measure intellectual ability the scored poorly, found stereotype threat, those that were threatened they spent more time doing less more inaccurately, black students fell into the stereotype that there were not smart

Affects of Steele and Aronson

showed that black and white people were equally competent

Why are stereotypes used

Used because world is so complex, simplifies the world, they are often wrong but they are still used

how to fix stereotype

has to be recognized to be fixed

racial group without stereotype

whites

the issue of the stereotypes about Blacks

It is cultural not individual, something we all know whether we want to or not, whether you personally believe it or not does not matter, nothing to do with individuals, changing this requires cultural change, cultural difference is the stereotype

what happens if you take away stereotype

the test can not measure intellectual ability

why does the test actually measure a white person intellect

because they do not have a stereotype

what happens when stereotype is confronted

you become distraction, taking away mental ability, drains cognitive ability

What has the LSAT come to further symbolize

discrimination

What is a negative affect of Steele and Aronson findings

Blames the victim, which if you blame the victim you cannot find a solution to the problem

Solutions

using self-affirmations, just writing one thing you are good at does not have to be applicable greatly improved scores
giving the points back

Self affirmations long term effects

if we combat these stereotypes in the short term, you will get a generation of data and then the stereotypes start to weaken since everyone is performing at same level,

Issue with activist

When an activist says women are just as good at something as a man is it is reinforcing the stereotype because you are acknowledging, causes stereotype threat

What happens if you get rid of LSAT

still need to sort people, so sorting will go back the way it used meaning discrimination

Adding points back

if blacks consistently score 10 points less then give them the 10 points, its not a bonus, the test stole 10 points because of the stereotype threat, the perception is that it is going to be a bonus for being a minority but the test stole

Purse example

if a persons purse gets stolen and then returned, you don't have the right to ask why you don't get a purse back because your purse did not get stolen

what if a minority who scores at the same level as white person gets the point bonus

they should still get that point bonus because they also had the stereotype threat which impacted their score, so in turn they will be above the average white person and that is the person we want

should it be known that minorities will get extra points

no, because it could impact performance and because of the stigma that would come with knowing some people are getting extra points

why can't you remove demographic questions

need them for stats information/ would not know that there is an issue if we didn't have the stats, asking people to not report race does not get rid of race

how do you know which stereotype is the bigger threat ex. if someone is black and a female

interaction effect

interaction effect

the relationship of these two variables depends on a third variable ex. wage gap in some countries wage gap is higher and in other lower, the two variables wage and gender depends on the variable of the country to determine the wage gap

is it subconscious

this is unknown

what does interaction effect tell us

it takes a really complex issue and tells us a net effect

why do wealthy people have the advantage of setting up their career

the pedigree of the school, they tend to go to better schools

Elite law schools

tuition cost about 80K, the people that go to these get hired at some of the best law firms, at those firms the starting salary is 80k, wealthy people end up with these jobs because they can afford the tuition of the elite schools

wealthy people and not wealthy people approach schools different

wealthy people approach as an investment
not wealthy people approach as a product, where can I get the cheapest education

How much money you pay changes education

the more you pay the better the education, cost is the thinking that traps you into poverty

Education does what

it transforms people

If you are trying to improve class through law school how do you do it

Take out loans to go to top law school

Does the LSAT get you admitted

no, it gets your file looked at

How do schools determine which files get looked at

They set a baseline everything below that baseline they do not look at it

Can you get admitted with a low LSAT score

Yes, because you might have something that the school is looking for

Can the baseline shift

Yes, it can change due to sociodemographics

Can you study for the LSAT

No, the people who make it try to make it so you cannot study

What does the LSAT test for

Abstract capabilities can prepare for test by practicing

What is the communication problem when students enter law school

Pedagogy

what is Pedagogy

the study of how people learn and teach things effectively

What is the pedagogy set that people have developed to get to this point

What you need to memorize and then you memorize it and then move on

What do you want lawyers to be able to do

Want them to be able to think in real time and adapt to quickly at different information flows

What skill do law schools want you to have

The ability to think for yourself

What is the best way to teach

to have a converstation

What is the pedagogy shift in law school

the socratic method

What does the socratic method do

learning environment should challenge, constantly on your toes, thrown off balance at any moment

Downside of socratic method

it is humiliating and embarrassing

What happens if your lawyer is scared of confrontation

you are going to jail

Is it easier to stand up in front of a group being right or wrong

easier to be right harder to be wrong

What is the goal of the socratic method

have someone go from being scared to being more comfortable voicing your opinion in an uncomfortable environment

What is the professors job

not tell you what to do but to coax you into thinking the direction they see is proper

Where does the socratic method come from

Socrates

What did Socrates believe

That everyone knows everything and getting people to figure things out allows them to gain new things and teaches them how to figure out new things

What does the socratic method explicitly do

Explicitly models how to approach a new topic

When was the socratic method introduced

at Harvard in the 1800s, very unpopular

Effects of the socratic method

It will through you off, causes higher dropout rates for impurity groups who are already uncomfortable in a classroom

Law schools are moving away from socratic method towards...

case study

Case study

studying cases to learn something about how the law approaches that type of case

Does law school mention justice

No

Do our ideas of justice match the systems idea of justice

No

Particular cases serve as an exemplar case, what is an example of an exemplar case

the Miranda case

What do Miranda rights set up

establish the idea that anyone under arrest can be told what their rights are

What is the important thing about the Miranda case

points out that there are other rights that people did not know about before, you can go to court and pull rights out of thin air, if you are not told your rights what good are they

What does the Miranda case allow for other cases to do

Allows for every case to become an opportunity to make new laws

What do studying cases do

not only does it teach the case and the decision but also how the system works

Landmark case

cases that lawyers are looking to because the decisions usually by the Supreme Court that will teach us something that we have been wondering

Example of landmark case

Heller case